tanis
Councillor
Posts: 257
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Post by tanis on Sept 14, 2010 11:28:55 GMT -6
'nother question? I'm not up on canon in this fandom, having read Similarion years ago and none of the letters at this point - so is it canon or fanon that elves conceive only when they desire to?
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Post by oshun on Sept 14, 2010 12:04:28 GMT -6
I think it is fanon, but there are inferences in canon that might lead someone to draw that conclusion. In Tolkien's document "Of Laws and Custom among the Eldar," which outlines all manner of controversial and conservative positions relating to marriage, sex, gender-defined roles in society, among other things, he writes: 'it would seem to any of the Eldar a grievous thing if a wedded pair were sundered during the bearing of a child, or while the first years of its childhood lasted. For which reason the Eldar would beget children only in days of happiness and peace if they could.' This passage has led a number of people to conclude that elves conceive at will. On the other hand, in other places in the document he describes that there is a time during the relationship of a couple which is dedicated to the conception and rearing of children and implies perhaps there isn't a lot of sex going on when those days are past. I would stick my neck out and say it is fanon that elves conceive at will or at best an extrapolation from canon that one could take or leave. I could wrap my mind around the concept for certain stories. In a recent story that I posted here for comment, I imply that Feanor and Nerdanel decided when to conceive a child, without explaining how that is physically possible. (I supposed if pressed I could come up with some fantastic pseudo-scientific explanation of how that is possible.) I am very fond of another author's view of Feanor and Nerdanel during their childbearing years--Dawn Felagund's Another Man's Cage--in which she takes exactly the opposite position. They try and fail to conceive a number of times before they get lucky.
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tanis
Councillor
Posts: 257
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Post by tanis on Sept 15, 2010 9:40:34 GMT -6
Ahhhh ... thanks for the fleshing out, Oshun. I can see I have lot of reading to do in order to figure out what/how canon can be manipulated.
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Post by oshun on Sept 15, 2010 9:53:05 GMT -6
IMHO pretty much anything and everything in canon can be manipulated.
It does always show--to me at least--if a writer knows the basic canon or not before they begin bending and twisting. But, I, for one, do not think that writers need to have a working knowledge of all the ins and outs of the entire HoMe series and all the major language articles, etc., etc., to consider themself conversant with the canon. I think of that level of knowledge as fun for me and others who get a kick out of it and enriching to my work, but certainly not necessary to tell a fun story.
In my early days in the fandom, even though I was a bit of a canon geek long before discovering fanfiction, I enjoyed many terrific movie-verse stories. I think the bottom line is enjoying the world and writing compelling stories.
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Post by aearwen on Sept 15, 2010 10:50:42 GMT -6
There is, of course, another option as to why the Elves don't conceive children in dangerous times: they are less driven by their bodily passions and simply abstain until they are ready.
This, of course, flies in the face of some fanon that postulates that Elves foricate like rabbits. It also fits Tolkien's very Catholic sensibilities, however.
However, if you think about it, a being that is immortal and never ages in body has all the time in the world to engage in sex with their equally immortal and ageless partner. Therefore, it is logical (at least to my twisted mind) to think that while in general, lovers might enjoy the kisses and caresses of their soulmate, they might reserve actual copulation for those times when they either are willing to take the chance of conceiving or deliberately want to conceive. This is not to say that they cannot be aroused; merely that they are in good enough control of both their minds and their bodies to know when to act on that arousal and when not to.
Most of the time, that is.
Remember, the mindset of Elves within their own culture isn't going to be something that we Mortals understand easily. We would tend to project our own desires and tolerances on them, just as they would project theirs on Mortals. And considering the fascination Mortals have for sex - to the point of being capable of rape, something the Elves cannot bring themselves to do (under most situations) - it occurs that this would be a logical physiological and cultural point for misunderstandings and erroneous assumptions to take place.
I find it logical that Elves could be stimulated and aroused by different situations and actions, and be perfectly satisfied with the kisses and caresses of their partner without the need to "go all the way." I suspect that sex, and the art and craft of bearing and raising children, is one of those instances where the races vary drastically - even though they can interbreed and produce living and fertile young.
That's why I've been writing In The House of Elrond the way I have, and why Gilraen has had some of the experiences she has. Sex and intimacy among the Elves, and how the expectations, practices and givens of each culture contrast and sometimes clash, has been an ongoing theme.
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Post by randy on Sept 15, 2010 15:31:09 GMT -6
It's fanon. The pertinent passage is to be found in the Laws & Customs, and it could mean that elves simply abstain from intercourse when having children is not a good idea, such as in times of war. All else seems to be speculation and personal preference.
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Post by oshun on Sept 16, 2010 18:02:54 GMT -6
There is, of course, another option as to why the Elves don't conceive children in dangerous times: they are less driven by their bodily passions and simply abstain until they are ready. This, of course, flies in the face of some fanon that postulates that Elves foricate like rabbits. It also fits Tolkien's very Catholic sensibilities, however. However, if you think about it, a being that is immortal and never ages in body has all the time in the world to engage in sex with their equally immortal and ageless partner. Therefore, it is logical (at least to my twisted mind) to think that while in general, lovers might enjoy the kisses and caresses of their soulmate, they might reserve actual copulation for those times when they either are willing to take the chance of conceiving or deliberately want to conceive. This is not to say that they cannot be aroused; merely that they are in good enough control of both their minds and their bodies to know when to act on that arousal and when not to. Most of the time, that is. Remember, the mindset of Elves within their own culture isn't going to be something that we Mortals understand easily. We would tend to project our own desires and tolerances on them, just as they would project theirs on Mortals. And considering the fascination Mortals have for sex - to the point of being capable of rape, something the Elves cannot bring themselves to do (under most situations) - it occurs that this would be a logical physiological and cultural point for misunderstandings and erroneous assumptions to take place. I find it logical that Elves could be stimulated and aroused by different situations and actions, and be perfectly satisfied with the kisses and caresses of their partner without the need to "go all the way." I suspect that sex, and the art and craft of bearing and raising children, is one of those instances where the races vary drastically - even though they can interbreed and produce living and fertile young. That's why I've been writing In The House of Elrond the way I have, and why Gilraen has had some of the experiences she has. Sex and intimacy among the Elves, and how the expectations, practices and givens of each culture contrast and sometimes clash, has been an ongoing theme. This sounds perfectly logical to me on a number of levels. I have chosen to approach it from another angle. Taking the physical details, geography, characters, events, and outcomes from canon and giving their culture and mores a totally different spin than Tolkien chose to give them. I don't include a lot of contrasting elves with mortals in my First Age fic yet, because I haven't reached that point chronologically. And also in general have far less interest in Tolkien's Men. (Probably comes from having read LotR over and over for decades before finally reading The Silmarillion . I had always picked over LotR and its appendices looking for every little scrap of info about the Elves and their history. And then when I picked up the The Silmarillion, it was 'Wow! This is what I have been wanting to read--the big story!' I won't go as far as to say that I wish Christopher Tolkien had left "Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar" in a dusty old box in a library (I am far too big of a geek for that!), but I have to admit that I liberally pick and chose what to use and what to ignore when I write my stories.) I think that reasons, appetites, and tastes in writing Tolkien fanfiction can vary wildly and that there is nothing wrong with that either. Gapfillers that fit seamlessly with Tolkien's world are very popular and I would assume present their own particular types of challenges for a writer, but certainly are not the only way to use the canon sources. I guess I personally have more fun writing a more in-your-face kind of departure from the way Tolkien's fictional histories of those times present the stories. Doesn't mean I don't take into consideration the differences between elves and men either. I do try to do that in my one major LotR WIP.
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Post by samtyr on Sept 16, 2010 18:20:45 GMT -6
A note about elves 'controlling' their ability to conceive: most Elf/Human couples are Human male and Elf female, so this could indicate that the Elf women do have such an ability. Either that, or they are aware of some special herbal mixture that helps them to do so, something that males are unaware of.
Offhand, I can't think of any Elf man/Human female couples that ever worked out (though it is very possible that I am just blanking on such a couple...)
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Post by oshun on Sept 16, 2010 18:40:57 GMT -6
I always think of people--and the scientists here can bash me if I am spouting old wives tales, or total irrationality--who adopt a child after years and failing to conceive and then get pregnant a year later. I always thought that indicated that there was some element of stress related to the inability to conceive for some people. Relieve the pressure and then something hormonal might change just enough to make it easier. Then I extrapolated if that were the case with our bodies, it wouldn't be that hard to imagine that elven bodies so nearly identical to ours, but slightly refined, might be able to control conception. That just say "no" did not have to be the only option for not conceiving during times of war, for example.
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Post by pandemonium on Sept 16, 2010 19:02:31 GMT -6
Two cents...oh, heck, who am I kidding...twenty-four dollars on the subject from the perspective of a hardcore biology type. oshun *Raises hand and waves wildly* Oh, I can do that! I can do that! And in fact, have done so. aearwenTimes of extreme stress or threat are not great for any human to reproduce. Note that baby booms more often occur after wars have ended or otherwise resolved. Heh. No, they fornicate like humans. Holy moly, yes. LaCE is one of the more Catholic writings in the legendarium. Possibly. But said body, to possess the characteristics of male or female, must have attendant hormones and receptors, regardless of functional immortality, and these in turn influence behavior. The control factor, though, I quite agree with you that would be critical. That's a great conception (forgive the pun ;D), and I like how you've crafted it within your 'verse. Er, I'd be more inclined to consider rape less an act of "sexual fascination" than a pathological/irrational act of violence which does not serve the social structure of humans all that well. Again, taking the hardcore biologist's view, if one is to accept the text I quote and have bolded below from JRRT's Letter 153, then Elves should be pretty darned interested in sex, too, but then the control factor may come into play. I agree on the logic of the cultural, very much so, but you're going to have to convince me on the physiological, that is, other than a stronger "mind-body connection" (for lack of a better term) which allows Homo sapiens eldarensis to exert more conscious control over their physiology. Drastically? I'm not convinced. For consensual interbreeding to occur, there have to be common signals and behaviors. But cultural barriers? Now that I can accept readily. We see that frequently in our primary world. Of course, I am being an argumentative booger. And I argue with JRRT's contentions quite frequently (LaCE rips me right out of his world of a green sun), but then, he did invite me (and many others) to study the biology of Arda, e.g., From Letter 153 (bolded emphasis mine): I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological — which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them so much). Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event : there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil.1 But since some have held that the rate of longevity is a biological characteristic, within limits of variation, you could not have Elves in a sense 'immortal' – not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' — and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World – and yet sufficiently akin. I might answer that this 'biology' is only a theory, that modern 'gerontology', or whatever they call it, finds 'ageing' rather more mysterious, and less clearly inevitable in bodies of human structure. But I should actually answer: I do not care. This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all.And... But as it is — though it seems to have grown out of hand, so that parts seem (to me) rather revealed through me than by me – its purpose is still largely literary (and, if you don't boggle at the term, didactic). Elves and Men are represented as biologically akin in this 'history', because Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world. They have certain freedoms and powers we should like to have, and the beauty and peril and sorrow of the possession of these things is exhibited in them. That bolded text has powerful implications, which contradict some fundamental precepts of LaCE. Elves and Men = human, but with different "fates" and perspectives.
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Post by oshun on Sept 16, 2010 19:08:24 GMT -6
Two cents...oh, heck, who am I kidding...twenty-four dollars on the subject from the perspective of a hardcore biology type. oshun *Raises hand and waves wildly* Oh, I can do that! I can do that! And in fact, have done so. aearwenTimes of extreme stress or threat is not great for any human to reproduce. Note that baby booms more often occur after wars have ended or otherwise resolved. Heh. No, they fornicate like humans. Holy moly, yes. LaCE is one of the more Catholic writings in the legendarium. Possibly. But said body, to possess the characteristics of male or female, must have attendant hormones and receptors, regardless of functional immortality, and these in turn influence behavior. The control factor, though, I quite agree with you that would be critical. That's a great conception (forgive the pun ;D), and I like how you've crafted it within your 'verse. Er, I'd be more inclined to consider rape less an act of "sexual fascination" than a pathological/irrational act of violence which does not serve the social structure of humans all that well. Again, taking the hardcore biologist's view, if one is to accept the text I quote and have bolded below from JRRT's Letter 153, then Elves should be pretty darned interested in sex, too, but then the control factor may come into play. I agree on the logic of the cultural, very much so, but you're going to have to convince me on the physiological, that is, other than a stronger "mind-body connection" (for lack of a better term) which allows Homo sapiens eldarensis to exert more conscious control over their physiology. Drastically? I'm not convinced. For consensual interbreeding to occur, there have to be common signals and behaviors. But cultural barriers? Now that I can accept readily. We see that frequently in our primary world. Of course, I am being an argumentative booger. And I argue with JRRT's contentions quite frequently (LaCE rips me right out of his world of a green sun), but then, he did invite me (and many others) to study the biology of Arda, e.g., From Letter 153 (bolded emphasis mine): I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological — which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them so much). Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event : there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil.1 But since some have held that the rate of longevity is a biological characteristic, within limits of variation, you could not have Elves in a sense 'immortal' – not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' — and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World – and yet sufficiently akin. I might answer that this 'biology' is only a theory, that modern 'gerontology', or whatever they call it, finds 'ageing' rather more mysterious, and less clearly inevitable in bodies of human structure. But I should actually answer: I do not care. This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all.And... But as it is — though it seems to have grown out of hand, so that parts seem (to me) rather revealed through me than by me – its purpose is still largely literary (and, if you don't boggle at the term, didactic). Elves and Men are represented as biologically akin in this 'history', because Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world. They have certain freedoms and powers we should like to have, and the beauty and peril and sorrow of the possession of these things is exhibited in them. That bolded text has powerful implications, which contradict some fundamental precepts of LaCE. Elves and Men = human, but with different "fates" and perspectives. You are kicking in an open door here with me. Except that you understand it better and can explain it. I have been involved in discussions before where you raised some of these points. This time around I am cutting and pasting and saving on my harddrive.
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Post by oshun on Sept 16, 2010 19:09:35 GMT -6
Quote:(I supposed if pressed I could come up with some fantastic pseudo-scientific explanation of how that is possible.) *Raises hand and waves wildly* Oh, I can do that! I can do that! And in fact, have done so.
Is it written down somewhere? I'm sure you've done so much better than I could ever do.
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